Why did this happen?
In 1885 two critics, Brooke Westcott and Fenton Hort had 14 books removed from the Bible. The Catholics and Ethiopians ignored Westcott and Hort, but the Protestants and the Anglicans obeyed.
This was not the dark ages, they had electricity, automobiles, engines, etc. This was a modern-day removal of 14 books from God’s Word because they felt those books needed to go.
Your KJV Bible was altered by those two men.
The most popular Bible at the time of Jesus was the Greek Septuagint version – which included the extra books.
Deuteronomy 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
The collective name assigned to the books that were removed is, “Apocrypha”, meaning: those that were hidden. Generally, the term is applied to writings that were not part of the canon because they are not considered genuine.
Timothy 3:16-17
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 17: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Here is the list of what was removed:
1 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
Book of Tobit (the Vulgate, and Luther call it “Tobias”)
Book of Judith (“Judeth” in Geneva)
Book of Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus (also known as Sirach)
Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy (“Jeremiah” in Geneva) (all part of Vulgate Baruch)
Song of the Three Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24–90)
Story of Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13)
The Idol Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14)
Prayer of Manasses (Daniel)
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
The Ethiopian and Roman Catholic Bibles still currently have these books in the Old Testament. They do not call them Apocrypha.
Where are we today with the Old Testament?
- The Orthodox Bible has 51 books
- The Protestant Bible, (such as the King James), has 39 books
- The Catholic Bible contains 46 books
- The Jewish Bible (Tanakh) has 24 books
- The Ethiopian Bible has all original books (full count)
The KJV Bible speaks of many unknown books:
- Book of the Covenant – Exodus 24:7
- Book of the Wars of the Lord – Numbers 21:14
- Book of Jasher – Joshua 10: 13, 2 Samuel 1:18
- The Manner of the Kingdom / Book of Statutes – 1 Samuel 10:25
- Book of Samuel the Seer – 1 Chronicles 29:29
- Nathan the Prophet – 1 Chronicles 29:29, 2 Chronicles 9:29
- Acts of Solomon – 1 Kings 11:41
- Shemaiah the Prophet – 2 Chronicles 12:15
- Prophecy of Abijah – 2 Chronicles 9:29
- Story of Prophet Iddo – 2 Chronicles 13:22
- Visions of Iddo the Seer –2 Chronicles 9:29
- Iddo Genealogies – 2 Chronicles 12:15
- Book of Jehu – 2 Chronicles 20:34
- Sayings of the Seers – 2 Chronicles 33:19
- Book of Enoch – Jude 1:14
- Book of Gad the Seer – 1 Chronicles 29:29
- Epistle to Corinth – 1 Corinthians 5:9
- The Annals of King David – 1 Chronicles 27:24
According to biblical scholars, as many as twenty gospels were not included or banned from inclusion. Among these are the gospel of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Matthias, Perfection, Bartholomew, Nazarenes, and the book of Hebrews.
Some additional books not included in the new testament are The Epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, The Didache, the lost epistle, and the third letter to the Corinthians. There are several more.
Without all that is written do you have the full story?
Why do they not want you to read those books?
Reality Decoded 
🙂 It gives me the impression that the priests have intentions of hiding the truth from us.
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*** Secrets!
They work best, when no one knows about them.
sigh ***
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Not surprised
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The Book of Enoch & The Gospel of Thomas are particularly troublesome for religious leaders.
Then, there is always translation issues, shifting from one language to another. Many “truths” have been forever lost. Alexandria was a great loss.
The less we know, the easier we become astray.
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Agreed!
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Gospel of Thomas is troublesome because it theologically contradicts the Scriptures – particularly the last saying, that women must become men to be saved.
Enoch, on the other hand, is absolutely genuine.
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/07/12/the-canon-of-scripture-part-2-enoch-and-jubilees/
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This looks interesting. I will read it, thanks.
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Interesting…
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And faith can only thrive with a lack of evidence. Evidence is a faith killer. More ambiguity and less evidence is a great play on human psychology.
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They removed them because those books contradicted their own personal beliefs. Which is stupid. I don’t understand why they don’t just change their beliefs when it doesn’t line up with Yah/God’s Word.
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Exactly!!!
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I’ve done lots of research into the books that were removed from the Bible. Here are the articles I’ve written on the subject:
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/06/26/the-canon-of-scripture-part-1-the-apocrypha/
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/07/12/the-canon-of-scripture-part-2-enoch-and-jubilees/
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/07/24/the-canon-of-scripture-part-3-jasher/
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2018/08/14/the-canon-of-scripture-part-4-the-other-books-of-baruch/
A fifth post (on “The Other Books of Enoch”) will be posted tomorrow. But there’s still plenty to write on the subject. With regards to the apocryphal gospels: the only one I’ve found that appears to be absolutely genuine is the Gospel of the Hebrews (also known as the Gospel of the Ebionites or the Gospel of the Nazarenes). Slight possibility Gospel of Nicodemus (aka Acts of Pilate), but haven’t thoroughly researched that one yet. Here is my list of Biblical books:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-books-are-in-the-original-Bible/answer/John-Michael-Mustchin?prompt_topic_bio=1
The removal of the Apocryphal books from the KJV actually started back in the 1600s. Even though James I passed a law prohibiting the removal of Biblical books (good on him! regardless of whatever his other faults were), publishers realised (about the 1630s, I think) that they could sell just as many Bibles (at lower cost and higher profit) by removing the Apocrypha. However, I think that KJV editions with the Apocrypha were fairly mainstream until the 1800s. Either way, it’s pretty bloody dishonest.
Keep it up!
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So are you saying for the 200 plus years that God was not in control of the Bible since it had those books?
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No, I’m not! Just commenting on how the KJV began to be abridged. God has been in control the whole time.
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I was curious because I am in discussions with people right now to determine why the Bible is so fractured. I’m open to other opinions at the moment. It is strange that the most important set of books in the world would be missing entire volumes. There must be a reason for this from a divine perspective.
It’s a curiously tough topic for believers to engage but it’s the elephant in the room.
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Yeah, I understand. God sometimes allows wicked men to get away with wicked schemes – it may well fit into His plan, whatever that is.
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I’ve started reading the book of Enoch so I can see for myself. So far I find it to be amazing.
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It certainly is! Considering that the book was lost for millennia and only rediscovered less than 3 centuries ago, it’s amazing that the book – at the very beginning – prophesies that it is not for Enoch’s generation, but for the last days.
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We have two very old family Bibles here, dating from the early 1800s. Methinks I’ll go take a look. Never been much of a bible reader, but this looks intriguing.
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I think ‘they’ set their sails to catch the wind.
If so, eventually the Bible will consist of just two covers—but people will still swear by it.
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I think that’s the goal. To remove each book slowly.
Funny how most religious people don’t mind.
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It’s the much denied ‘evolution’ at work:
adapt or die
—applies to theories even more than the physical.
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This isn’t evolution it’s manipulation. The books that were removed contradict church teachings.
Evolution is what you see from the OT to the NT.
What they did was a textbook maneuver to control the sheep.
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You stated — “Fair’s fair, right?”
My response — Not when it comes to books. Books are written by authors to be read. It is not the readers job to remove chapters they don’t like and thus take away from the experience for the next reader.
If one does not like a book (for any reason) then don’t read it, give it a bad review and warn others to stay away.
But don’t remove chapters you don’t like and then pass it on. (not fair)
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I am simply speaking to motive.
They felt those particular books had contradictions that could discredit their religion. If followers left the church they would have less control over them, so they had the books removed.
When someone thinks the Bible is fake they can remove books easily because it really has no value.
A person of faith doesn’t want to control the Bible, they simply want to see the whole story, so the more books the better. They don’t fear people leaving.
My second point was to always keep a “Book” intact and let people come to their own conclusions of validity. No body wants a world where people remove chapters from books because they don’t like them. That’s nonsensical. We don’t need any book police.
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YOu stated — “Fair enough, I understand your point clearer now.
In this case, I agree. Stick as many books in the bible as possible, including all the ”other” gospels.”
My response — Agreed. Then Theist and Atheist can have a better conversation based on the full content.
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You stated — “Are you saying for examople that evolution is not fact_”
My response — Evolution is a theory not a fact. Evolution is based on scientific data that is a fact but not an absolute certainty. A scientific fact is something confirmed to such a degree that it would be nonsensical to deny it given what we know today. Science is the number one best tool we have for understanding the reality we live in.
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You stated — “As is the Theory of Evolution a fact.”
My response earlier — “Evolution is a theory not a fact. Evolution is based on scientific data that is a fact but not an absolute certainty. A scientific fact is something confirmed to such a degree that it would be nonsensical to deny it given what we know today. Science is the number one best tool we have for understanding the reality we live in.”
Googles response — A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world.
My response – Where do you see me disagreeing with the definition of a scientific theory in my responses to you?
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In context, there is only the scientific perspective or the religious one.
There is nothing to support the latter.
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You stated — “In context, there is only the scientific perspective or the religious one.”
My response — That’s your opinion but not a fact.
You are missing one of the largest other options “The Perspective of Philosophy”
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Yes Philosophy. You could say that Buddhism is a religion of Philosophy since they don’t have a deity.
Philosophy could also easily account for what is commonly believed to be a reality generated by human consciousness.
It would also cover one of the many worlds interpretation which heavily relies on choice causing alternate realities.
It would also cover a simulated reality based on advanced human civilization.
Just because something doesn’t fit within your predefined narrative does not mean it should be dismissed.
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Nope. Just pointing out that you are wrong thinking there are only two opinions.
The original argument hasn’t gone anywhere.
If you make a statement and I don’t agree with it then I will respond with why I don’t agree. This doesn’t in anyway finish any past argument or disagreement we have.
We are still actively in the first 2 arguments.
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That seems to be an obvious yes since I am Christian. I wrote an entire 10 part article on my website about being Christian.
How do you not know that coming into the conversation?
Do you believe that God exist or do you believe that God does not exist?
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I’m not referring to any God, I was asking do you think God exist. I’m not sure why you keep avoiding this question.
In your own words, “A Yes or No answer” seems applicable. A detailed answer would be more informative.
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It seems nonsensical for me to pick Gods one at a time from a list of thousands and then check them off until the entire list is covered.
Also I’m not sure why I need to help you answer a “straight forward” question.
I think the problem with Theist and Atheist is the predefined repetitive interactions that don’t lead anywhere. Me and you are simply having a discussion, do you believe God exist?
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I’m not you, so how would i know if you A- Believe in a God and B- Which one it is?
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What does cap G have to do with anything?
Do you believe in god? Does this help you lol.
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Ahh
Why do you not believe in any god (God) or Gods (gods) Trying to cover any character case requirements you have.
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How would why I don’t believe in something be the reason you don’t believe in something?
Don’t you know why you don’t believe god (Gods) don’t exist? Are you telling me that you don’t know why you don’t believe something?
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You could just tell me why you don’t believe in God instead of ignoring my question.
As for if I believe in other Gods I would say no since I only believe in one God so multiple Gods would seem counterproductive to believing in a single God. I don’t know if past Gods are the same God or not since I don’t know Gods name.
Maybe people are going through time believing in the same God with different names they assign. Who knows. It’s also possible that other people believing in a single God are all believing in the same god (again I don’t know)
Let me try this again. Why do you (not me) not believe a god exist?
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I don’t even know what Kichigonai is.
But it’s clear you don’t know why you don’t believe so I guess that’s as good an answer as anything.
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I’m going to try your method:
I believe in God for the same reason other people believe in God. O.o
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At the moment I’m just answering like you. With no detail or content but without all the dramatic flair.
LANDER7
NOVEMBER 13, 2018 AT 6:35 PM
I’m going to try your method:
I believe in God for the same reason other people believe in God.
This is how you like to communicate so no big. We can have vague general understandings of each other.
No please proceed with the dramatic catching of me in “ugly realities” with “a hiding to nothing” (not sure what that means but it sounds interesting)
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You seem to have the conversation down to a science. So I will just keep listening to your side of the script.
You don’t feel a need to provide answers and you seem to like canned responses . Then there is the speech at the end as to why I’m so close minded based on nothing I’ve said since you are speaking for me.
Bravo we’ve all learned so much about each others position.
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You haven’t demonstrated anything because you haven’t answered the question:
And then when I give you the same dull empty answer you come back with two pages of talking points as though I actually said something.
We aren’t having a conversation you are just giving a speech.
If you answer the question then we can have a conversation and you could possibly blast me for my actual beliefs or positions rather than boring canned responses.
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You stated — “You have attached a capital G, therefore it is perfectly reasonable to ask which god you believe in.”
I replied — “What does cap G have to do with anything? Do you believe in god? Does this help you lol.”
And here we are again with a talking point:
You stated — ‘you presuppose your belief by capitalizing your god with a big G, thus elevating it above the gods of other believers”
If you don’t want to have a real conversation no big deal but at least break away from your script for a moment.
If you decide to have a conversation then the question is still on the table.
Why do you not believe in any god (God) or Gods (gods) Trying to cover any character case requirements you have.
If the answer is going to be pointed back at me with no details like before then save time and skip it.
You past answer — “For the same reason you do not believe in Hanuman, or Thor I expect.”
I don’t want to know what other people or I think I want to know why you don’t.
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I am looking for an honest answer as to why you do not believe. It shouldn’t have anything to do with me, you are your own person, surely you know why you don’t believe in something.
It doesn’t have to wow me but it has to be your answer.
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So I still have to guess my way through some of this since you are lacking in detail.
Are you saying you don’t believe in God because you don’t have enough evidence or because religions don’t have enough? Or is it something else.
Also as a side note I don’t know anything about Thor but I thought he was part human or something.
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A couple of questions first:
What is the case thing with you and why is it so important?
Now my answer to what I think you are asking which is why do I believe in God.
I had an encounter that I couldn’t dismiss so I decided to believe in the creator (changed it since you have an issue with g’s)
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You stated — “Are you aware of the major advancements in neuroscience and its relevance to you belief?”
My response — Finally something interesting for a real debate! I am aware of several technologies that simulate what people call the “spiritual experience”. I study Quantum Mechanics, Artificial Intelligence and Neuroscience but my profession is Computer Engineering. I’m currently working with AI and machine learning as a side hobby.
I’m very interested in these new fields of technology where people are simulating religious experiences but to be honest I’m more interested in Philosophy since it has the largest impact on our future. Religion is such a small part of our reality that I’m still not sure why it gets so much press.
Technology is the dominate contributor to our social and economic existence. With the dawn of super AI around the corner we may very well be on the verge of major disruption if we don’t program these new thinking machines correctly. This is where Philosophy will be the key factor.
To get back on topic, my encounter was outside of those parameters. This is to say I didn’t have a feeling or voice, etc .
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It was simple really. I created a list of questions in private without telling anyone. The questions varied in complexity. I read them out loud in private asking God to answer them out loud so I could verify his existence. I got no response. So that ended that line of thought.
2 days later I took a day off from work, on late notice, (like that morning). On my way out of my secured condo complex there was a lady walking around inside who didn’t live there. She asked me for some assistance in finding some historic landmark (my place was in one of those old factories).
I didn’t have anything to do but goof off so I tried to help her, about 30 mins later after an endless sea of chatter about historic this and that she suddenly stops talking and says out loud that God sent her to answer my questions and then proceeds to answer each one I had asked in private 2 days earlier. This took a bit less than an hour. After answering the last question, I suddenly realized where the landmark is but she then stated that she didn’t need to see anything and was just there to answer those questions and she left.
I can’t shake it. It beats my skepticism. I don’t think it should qualify for anyone else believing since it was a personal experience. I’m not sure how this works but I’m fully convinced it doesn’t have anything to do with religion since my grandmother dragged me to church when I was younger and that didn’t seem to work.
In short, I created what I believed would be criteria of proof for me and it happened to my satisfaction. I would be a hypocrite to back out now since I set the parameters and they were met.
Strangely enough I’m now in this weird space where I don’t follow dogma so Christians pretty much get frustrated with me and I believe God exists so Atheist are frustrated with me also.
Imagine being the minority in every group lol. It’s been an interesting adventure being raked over the coals by predefined bias and belief on both sides. People need to either believe or not believe but based on their own experience and for their own reasons.
I think I will write an article on it this week to go over the “Then to now” story. Suffice it to say I don’t have any religion answers like which should you pick and all that.
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You asked — “Why on earth would you create a list of questions to ask a man made deity?”
My response – I wanted to see what would happen. This seems obvious.
You stated — “And from the way you phrased this paragraph I get the impression you already had a leaning/understanding /bias toward Christianity”
My response — Everyone on Earth has a bias toward something, so again you are not revealing anything new.
None of this solves the problem of the encounter so it has no value. Your focus is on religion (I get that) but you are beating a dead horse. I’m not describing a religious event I’m just recalling what happened.
It’s not designed to convince you of anything, it’s just the only answer to your question of why I believe.
Now my turn: Do you believe (like the Buddist) that there is more to man than just our physical being regardless of the possibility of a god? I used lower case for you since it seems to be important.
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I asked questions to get answers. That one seems self explanatory.
As for confession of sins this seems obvious since I keep repeating I am a Christian I most have done that a million times by now. I thought you knew something about Christianity? This seems like we are talking about the basics of Christianity lol. Bible Class 101 as it were.
Still looking for you to stop dodging my question since I have more waiting on that one.
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Still looking for you to stop dodging my question.
You are under the perception that you don’t have to answer any questions but still want to be in a discussion.
Strange.
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Wow you just keep skipping over my replies to judge my positions. If you don’t want to have a discussion why not just say so.
I will try again:
Do you believe (like the Buddist) that there is more to man than just our physical being regardless of the possibility of a god?
Adding now because you are taking a moment to look at what I am asking:
Do you think there is definitely no God as a fact?
Do you think that consciousness can exist outside the body? As in transference to a machine body.
Why do you have such a low esteem of Philosophy?
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So you are still going to dodge my question and the few simple questions I added.
Why so much fear from just a few questions. You can still be an Atheist and answer a few questions.
If all you are going to do is preach and judge me then what is the point in having a discussion. You could have just posted you say and then been done with it.
Get back to me when you find the time in your day to put an answer on my screen to those question I just sent you. This is not hard.
They weren’t even the tough ones.
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You stated — ” You are looking for a discussion on a subject simply because you refuse to accept that me being an atheist and a humanist covers your questions.”
Ok let’s test this theory
To answer your questions I’m a Christian.
Here is my wiki info on being christian it should cover everything we are both good now. I have your title and you have mine and we have exchanged canned google definitions.
A Christian (/ˈkrɪstʃən, -tiən/ (About this sound listen)) is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. “Christian” derives from the Koine Greek word Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach
While there are diverse interpretations of Christianity which sometimes conflict, they are united in believing that Jesus has a unique significance. The term “Christian” is also used as an adjective to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense “all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like.”
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Like you, my canned response should cover that, if not then let’s have a discussion. We can start with those questions I asked.
Unless of course they are still covered in your canned response then we should both still be good.
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You stated — “And why did you assume I have a low esteem of philosophy?”
Because of this interaction. Which makes me think you don’t even know what you are typing.
I stated earlier — “You are missing one of the largest other options “The Perspective of Philosophy”
You responded — “Philosophy? We are discussing evolution and the veracity of the biblical text. So I have to as, surely you jest?”
So I replied — “Why do you have such a low esteem of Philosophy?”
And her we are with your response — “And why did you assume I have a low esteem of philosophy?”
LOL really, you can’t see why?
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You stated — “Philosophy of religion is the theists Great Escape.
Before long you will be quoting Nietzsche or Aquinas.”
My response — Wow you really have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Philosophy.
Currently I reading Marcus Aurelius and listening to Sam Harris.
Well it was fun being judged by an Atheist for a change, it’s about the same as when Christians judge me.
You talk over me, ignore my questions and act like the simplest questions are to hard to answer.
I will respond the moment I see answers to those question I asked otherwise you are not taking me seriously.
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You stated – “I am an atheist. Atheists do not believe in gods. My personal lack of belief in gods is based on the evidence ( or lack thereof) so far presented.”
My response – I think we understand what an Atheist is, I’ve written articles on it. I am curious if you have a “hard” Atheist position, where you believe there is in fact no god rather than lack of proof of one.
I know this question can be a trap so I will void the option to ask you to prove the claim, I am just curious.
You stated about mind transference – “I have absolutely no idea.”
My response – I find this response to be lacking some effort. We have already transferred consciousness to robotic limbs and the body is the next to go.
I think this is more important than religion and is the next step in the evolution of mankind. I find it silly to discuss God without talking about technology.
You asked – “What were the emotional/trauma issues that convinced you to think you needed to confess your sins and believe you had to seek salvation in the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth?”
I choose Christianity as a religion and it requires asking God for forgiveness. For instance, if I get to greedy I then seek forgiveness later in the day. Obviously, I didn’t suffer any trauma from being greedy.
Forgiveness a position of excepting that one is wrong in their actions. Think of it as anti-narcissism
Do you believe Elon Musk when he states that we will be connecting human consciousness to the internet within the next year?
Do you think that human consciousness is more than the body or just a working of the flesh (mind)?
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So there are two places where we both believe we have answered the question but the other person believes it is not answered. I find this fascinating.
Yours is: Why do you believe you need to ask forgiveness from a man-made deity?
Mine is: I am curious if you have a “hard” Atheist position, where you believe there is in fact no god rather than lack of proof of one.
Since we are both unable to answer these two question I will agree to disagree. It would be like beating a dead horse. If you find a way to re-answer then I will join in and re-answer mine.
My faith and understanding of God is tied to technology so if you state that this “isn’t a topic that currently hold any serious interest for me.” then we may be at an end point because I am trying to understand why you do not which does interest me.
Religion is interesting to a degree but at most just seems like a human construct to explain what I believe to be a real god. I think technology combined with philosophy will get mankind more answers.
This is why I study these topics and why they take up so much space on my website (over 200 articles). Religion has less than 40.
I predict you are going to be bored since this is going to keep coming up.
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Let’s focus on each one of these to get past the road blocks.
You stated — “feel free to plead your case for your god.”
My response — What does this refer to? Are you asking me to prove my experience? You are not being clear so it is confusing.
From my side I’m asking do you A- think there is no such thing as a God being possible ever or B – Simply not convinced but could be convinced if satisfying evidence were produced.
Let’s see if this works.
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I think you are saying prove God exist. I’m not aware of a way to prove that God exist. This takes us back to the begging of the conversation where we already went over this.
If you are saying prove that Jesus exists then I don’t know enough about history to do that. Very similar to your knowledge of consciousness and technology.
If it is outside of this I will need for you to be more detailed in the question.
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You stated — “Your god IS the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth.( You are Trinitarian I presume?)”
My response — The word trinity is not in the Bible.
As an Atheist you may think life ends when you die but from your perspective would you prefer (if you could) to continue on in some form past death or do you like the idea that things end when you die?
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You stated — “And am I right in believing that you are not a Trinitarian Christian?”
My response — The word “Trinitarian” isn’t in the Bible.
The only title I have is “Theist Polymath Philosopher” outside of that I have no direct knowledge of other groups or what they stand for. They don’t seem relevant.
You stated — “Do you agree, then that the Johannine comma is a fraudulent interpolation?”
My response — No.
There are many interpretations but it’s irrelevant since no one has the original manuscripts. The current manuscripts are copies.
You stated — (As I am sure you are aware, there are several sects of Christianity who do not consider themselves Trinitarian, though they are not regarded as ”proper Christians” by the mainstream.)
My response — I have no idea how many of anything call themselves “Add Title”. What organizations call themselves or what they believe has no value to me. Also with over 1000 denominations the idea of a “mainstream” is nonsensical.
You stated — “Do you consider the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth to be your god? (Yes or No)”
My response — Jesus is as he is described in the Bible. If you ask a question about my belief then the answer is scripture since I didn’t make the Bible. I haven’t formed any personal opinion of someone already defined. This is to say that the Bible defines Jesus not me. I believe the Bible is true so here is your answer.
John 1:1, 14
Matthew 3:17
John 10:30
Mark 13:32
Colossians 1:19
Mark 16:19
You stated — “Though the near immortality the characters achieve is because of advanced genetic engineering on their own bodies rather than any transfer of so called consciousness.”
My response — Do you believe that mankind can achieve immortality?
You stated –“rather than any transfer of so called consciousness.”
My response — Do you believe in consciousness?
Do you know what the singularity is?
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You stated — “Philosophical theism represents belief in a personal God entirely without doctrine.”
My response — Nope that is just your opinion and not a fact.
You stated — “you quote passages from the bible. Why?”
My response — This seems obvious since I am a Christian.
You stated — “The biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth is a narrative construct.”
My response — This is also just your opinion unless you have proof to back up your claim. I would also add that you knowledge of Biblical history seems weak since his name is not even Jesus in Biblical times.
You stated — “Furthermore, his portrayal differs from gospel to gospel”
My response — It depends on which interpretation you are reading and again this is only your opinion. That which is claimed without proof can be dismissed without proof.
You stated — “What do you mean by ”consciousness”?”
My response — Let me rephrase. What is part of you is having a conversation with me? And is that part material or immaterial?
You stated — “Are you referring to the ”technological singularity”?”
My response — In this case yes but there are possible lesser singularities.
I’m missing an answer to this question:
Do you believe that mankind can achieve immortality?
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You stated — “Philosophical theism represents belief in a personal God entirely without doctrine.”, “I copied and pasted from Wiki.
Take it up with them …”
My response — “Theology is by believers for believers, so the average logical non-believer (and many average, logical believers for that matter) needs to be prepared to do a lot of head scratching if they want to understand a given theology. Note well, if you are trying to stir the pot, prove “your theology is wrong”, or bring up new points, with the 2000+ years in Christian theology, and the 4000+ years in some other theologies, that’s not too likely.”
I copied and pasted from RationalWiki.
Take it up with them …”
You stated — It is regarded as an hypothesis. At this stage it sounds about right then.
My response — The singularity is a fact. Do you deny the increase in technological complexity over time and the speed by which it is produced?
You stated — “You really should read the novel It is a brilliant story.”
My response — I may take a look but I am still finishing the following books and most are not light reading. I’m reaching a book singularity at the moment.
Marcus Aurelius Meditations
Automate the Boring Stuff with Python – Al Sweigart
World Without Cancer – G. Edward Griffin
The Book Of Enoch
Fiction, Intuition, and Creativity – Angela Hague
The End of Faith – Sam Harris
Ubik Philip K. Dick
You stated — “So, irrespective of the several meanings and interpretations in the bible do you personally consider Jesus to be your god?”
My response — You may not be understanding me on this so let me rephrase. I am a Bible literalist so Jesus is what he states he is in scripture. I can state what I believe he is via what is written.
Here is an example: I would say Jesus is an advocate with the Father
1 John 2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
Here is another: I would say Jesus is Lord.
Philippians 2: 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If you open a scripture and it says what Jesus is then I would agree and say that is what he is per the Bible. I describe him as the Bible describes him.
Do you believe that you could obtain power over time that gave you abilities like a god if you were immortal (you stated immortality was possible
I am also curious if a cap B in Bible also has meaning for you that I may not be aware of?
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The singularity is a fact.
Not yet it isn’t. But it is a prediction.
It was a prediction but as you can see by what Elon Musk has stated we have already activated it. We are moving to the event horizon now.
You stated — “Are you saying you accept what is written at face value, that you interpret the bible literally?”
My response — What I am saying is only in relation to you statement, “Is Jesus this or that”. Jesus is only what the Bible states that he is. There is no other reference to pull information from.
But lander there are millions of books on Jesus: No. These books are based on the Bible and a person’s interpretation of it.
But lander there are 50 different bibles: No. all Bibles are based on one set of original manuscripts (which no one has) and are too just interpretations of those.
But lander (add question about Jesus): Answer will be “Bible\Book\Verse”. Because it is the only source of information on Jesus.
You stated — “i.e.Genesis is fact, the global flood as described is fact, Exodus and conquest as written is fact, the Virgin Birth is fact, etc, etc?”
My response — There is nothing God can’t do. This is why I say these are weaker arguments. The question isn’t “Can God make a flood that you can’t detect?”, the question is, “Is there a God?”
If there is no god then there is no need to argue any other point especially scripture and especially one verse at a time. I mean really how much time do you have to argue scripture with all 7 billion humans on this Earth?
If there is a God then he has no limit in what he can do but you can have a limit in what you will do in his name.
You stated — “As the gospel of John is the sole gospel where the central character, Jesus of Nazareth could be said to be claiming he is Yahweh, are you basing your belief that he is your god primarily on this gospel?”
Provide the verse so we can see what you are looking at.
You stated — “This is an odd question and quite frankly has no reverence to our discussion. There are other points we need to clear first and I do not wish to digress any more than we have already. Maybe later?”
My response — LOL Imagine being on my side and being asked questions like which God am I referring to because of the caps lock on my pc, which by the way has absolutely no bearing on if there is or isn’t a god. (note: using random upper/lower now).
I want to know where your belief runs into a challenge. It’s to detached, you seem happy with the status quo. You most likely just live day to day with no thoughts of a higher state of being (like a full cybernetic body) or projection of consciousness, etc. Technology is rapidly moving in a direction that can now even simulate a spiritual experience and you can’t even see the need to accept that change is happening in a way that may bring a final answer to the God question.
I mean do your thoughts end with the kardashians or is there more?
Do you use the term “character” repeatedly to prevent from accidentally believing he is real? It’s like the “G” thing for Atheist, right?
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I asked – “Provide the verse so we can see what you are looking at.”
You stated — “With reference to the I AM phrase, which is generally acknowledge ( by many biblical scholars) to be confirmation he believed he and Yahweh to be the same.”
My response – That’s not a verse so we can move on.
There is nothing God can’t do
You stated — “A faith statement and completely unsubstantiated. As weak and silly an argument as one is likely to hear.”
My response — That’s just your opinion not a fact. You keep using a weak argument and I keep responding in a weak way to it. Why not move to a stronger argument (like is God real?)
Jesus is only what the Bible states that he is. There is no other reference to pull information from.
You stated — “As the bible is nothing more than historical fiction then this makes any such statements simply vacuous.’
My response — Again that is your opinion but not a fact.
You stated — “He is simply a narrative construct.’
My response — How you are missing this point I have no idea; Harry Potter is a character but no one I talk to wastes the time stating that he is in every sentence. You use it like you are worried about something. Just like that G thing you were talking about.
It’s like you have a nervous tick or something but in text form. It’s such a waste of typing.
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My response — You spout opinions, you make claims and it means nothing because you ignore the person you are talking to and why they believe.
I have reasons for believing God exists and none of those reasons have been addressed from your opinions.
You ignore my responses and then run to things like, “bible IS nothing more than Historical Fiction” Make a note to self, the Bible was not what made me believe so how is proving anything with it a way to make me not believe? How do you not understand this? Start with “Why” a person believes not what they do afterwards.
I mean really listen to yourself, I told you why I believe but you just rolled past that to argue this:
“you need to read John again?”
“supposed human sacrifice
“Allah, or Quetzalcoatl”
“blatant indoctrination yet?”
“Historical Fiction”
“6000 year old earth”
“vegetarian Allosaurus?”
“character Jesus”
“itinerant rabbi who preached in Galilee”
“Lake Tiberius Pedestrian”
LOL it’s like you’re reading a bad script the Matt threw away one day before going on air.
You need to have a real conversation at some point about “MY” perspective detached from “YOUR” beliefs of what I should be like as a Christian otherwise what’s the point?
Notice that I don’t care that you are an Atheist? I want to know where it started not where you are now. I’m curious why you are satisfied with a life devoid of a God experience. You seem happy with the mundane, with daily life. No curious complicated thoughts just, “Bible Bad”. How about telling me what you think life is all about so I can understand something more than these canned responses. Everytime I press you for more I hit a wall of “I don’t know”, how can you not be pondering the harder questions in life. Why don’t you know?
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You stated — “Please God, if you are real send me a sign as I am desperate to believe and really need to give up smoking,”
My response — Ahh, now I understand what you are saying. You have wasted a lot of time by just not being clear in your responses. You think the questions were designed for something like a change in lifestyle or related to miracles of some type. You make huge assumptions. I designed a series of questions between science, mysticism and faith. I was looking for a set of questions that were specific on several topics to ensure the response could be confirmed and would be outside my current knowledge base.
The answers received were on target and did exceed what I currently knew at the time and I did engage in further experiments with what I learned and found it to be true. You don’t seem to have any curiosity when it comes to God, I think you only see god as a “water from rock” type of experience. You don’t believe God can answer questions and on top of that you don’t think a question can be something like “How to understand time in relation to consciousness”.
You need to understand something upfront in this conversation. When an old woman shows up babbling about civil war relics and then suddenly states that God sent her to answer questions you asked in secret it pushes you past your comfort zone a bit. Questions, I may add, that are not for everyday people and range across a spectrum of knowledge. All of this without it being in the conversation I was having with her (a stranger). I would love to know “WHY” you think something like this happened instead of this endless dribble about dogma.
But to address your crux I feel that I may partially be at fault since you don’t know me and I may be holding back a bit out of curiosity. Long story short. Dad (Atheist and anti-humanist) (Mom – Mystic and engineer) (Grandmother devout Christian) and years of training from each equals me.
Fast pace — Now add no religion until experiment then bang belief in God. This should bring us to now where I have chosen a religion (Christianity) and I am studying it in detail. Trying to follow it (but only per what I read in the bible not from what is taught in church). Runner ups were Quakers (almost happened) and Buddhist (but after some study I found out they have no Deity). This should cover topics like why I ask for forgiveness (Bible said to). Once you choose a religion it would be nonsensical to not believe it and not follow it within how you understand it. This would be the faith part that you believe is ridiculous (I understand but please stop beating that drum) Links at the end should end our back and forth on this level.
I now do in depth Bible study and have a 3Dimentional database I keep online. I write articles on what I find in relation to preconceived beliefs in religion (most likely why Christians tend to have a problem with me). I also heavily study Philosophy and consciousness and post on it (why Atheist tend to have a problem with me).
But as for Atheism and Christianity this may help with where I am in thought:
https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/07/04/christian-mom-talks-to-athiest-show-so-son-will-talk-to-church-pastor-the-conversation-is-fascinating/
https://realitydecoded.blog/category/10-things-christian/page/1/
This may be where you find hard conflicts since “YOU” see it as wasted time but I enjoy studying the Bible and finding truth in it:
https://realitydecoded.blog/2017/06/26/the-bible-and-interest-debt/
This one I’m throwing in to lighten your dark mood a bit. You always seem mad and it’s hard to talk to someone who just seems angry all the time.
https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/01/03/jumping-over-babies-to-remove-sin/
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You stated — “And I note you don’t seem interested to converse with any de-converted Christians, especially any who have been at the business end of faith and ministry work.”
My response — So you don’t read my replies, this is proof of that. Until you acknowledge or read my reply I guess we are stuck here and can’t move forward.
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I’m talking about the personal Atheist part not the videos. YOu seemed to skip the fact that I already had that. YOu are not reading you are skimming.
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For crying out loud. My dad was an Atheist. Trained from day one to discount religion. You somehow jumped over that and gave credit to my grandmother for raising me LOL.
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Really? Grandma beats Dad and Mom? Wow.
What is your damage?
What happened to you to make you so singularly focused?
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It was just a thought. I can direct you to a number of deconverts who’s grandparent s are, even now , exercising a certain amount of influence over their grandchildren.
Not a happy situation for the parents, as you can imagine
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All I can say is bad parents then. My family doesn’t work that way. If you pay your bills you own your thoughts lol.
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This is a time question isn’t it? (and) It’s also a Philosophical question.
Let’s follow your logic and see where it takes us:
Start with Time:
Since I didn’t have a religion or belief in anything for about 30 years I guess you could say Dad one the 3 way perspective of child raising. (That is of course if you had asked the exact same question everyday for those particular 30 or so years.)
Then there were a number of years that made me question the nature of reality in respect to my understanding of science ( I think we can give Mom that one (upper case) since some of it crossed into some acceptance of mystical beliefs on some level (like coincidence exceeding probability in relation to dreams)
But if we fast forward to today (about 15 years after almost being killed on an aircraft carrier) then it would seem (Grandma is winning)
So is it time based or is it some type of strict trauma? What say you? I would argue that this is where Philosophy comes in (upper case)
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She was a dedicated church going Christian until she married me. Now she believes in God but doesn’t believe in church.
Her family (as you can imagine) is not happy with that part. She has spent to much time studying my material.
To many unanswered questions from all sides.
Imagine being in a place where you see religion, mysticism, and atheism meet but each side fails to answer all questions. After a few years of gleaming what I have gathered she is now more of a God and science believer.
This for you from your perspective would be utterly impossible since you are only allowed you piece of the puzzle (which I get by the way).
I live in a world where this happens and it shouldn’t: https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/11/16/people-are-having-dental-work-done-with-no-anesthesia-using-hypnosis/
So I am forced to think outside the box of the triangle believes like you create.
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Your view of me is irrelevant and doesn’t answer to what the truth is.
You have opinions ( a bit narcissistic) but you lack proof of what you say.
You avoid tough questions and deflect to statements detached from what was requested.
Why not get on topic and provide some evidence.
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You stated — “Your story has similar patterns /ingredients to hundreds of conversion tales.”
My response — So does yours. So nothing new here.
You stated — “I am serious! And what sort of nutter believes in the Devil, right?”
My response — You mean devils no devil. The devil is a religious construct, the bible has devils in scripture.
You stated — “Religious Indoctrination is brain washing par excellence,”
My response — I would disagree, it’s more like Indoctrination through predictive scripting, very similar to the political process for party Indoctrination and most definitely similar to your initial interactions with me, in that they lack any honest personal content, just canned copy paste responses (on size fits all)
Indoctrination is usually is simply just lazy repetitive words to an audience that enjoys structure over value.
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That can never empties. I can go back and cut and paste your response over each other and it would almost be an exact match.
Do you have any personal original voice or idea of your own or is it always just the same words cut and paste?
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Ok let’s agree to disagree on this. We are not getting anywhere.
I will let you get the last word, which I’m sure will be something like what I just read or related to running away or something.
I will look over your sight (interesting) I’m sure another argument will start there at some point.
Maybe by then you will be past the talking points.
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I’ll look it over , thanks.
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Side Note: Do you know what the orienting reflex is? I ask because your responses seem to follow this method of cognitive response to the options I’m presenting.
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I do know. All praise the god Google.
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If you are using Google then narrow it down to “Orienting Decision Making” or it will not make sense to my reference most likely.
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I just briefly read the first thing that popped up.
Are you referring to my ”knee jerk” reaction?
There is a post up on my blog that I am sure you will relate to. Right up your street in fact.
Especially if you like music.
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You didn’t link it. Is it the one with the guitar?
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yes.
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You are also not understanding my point since you seem to think I have a motive other than what has been stated.
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I just gave you a great one. Surely that would do it for you.
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YOu stated “What is my trauma”. This seems like a trauma and it happened to me so I’m guessing it counts for you. Or does it have to be more than a plane hitting an aircraft carrier in the middle of the gulf?
What more is needed than this?
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This is good now we are getting somewhere.
I don’t know. Maybe the event was some type of life changer on a subconscious level.
What do you think?
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It’s obvious sht happens, look at the world. But that’s not an answer to reality it’s just an observation of random probability.
You need to put forth some effort. What do you think pushed me towards religion as you say. We can’t trust me since you already said I was brainwashed. So what do you think?
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I think all of these are great and could be reasons for why I choose a religion. This should make me seriously question my Christianity. Along with years of dad doing the same and hours of watching Sam Harris, matt dillahunty, and Tracie Harris
So, this covers religion and all the posts I made about fallacies in region myself.
Now to address the remainder. How do we explain the incident with the woman, a third person having knowledge of my complex questions doesn’t seem to tie into what you replied with? It’s the last piece of the puzzle and should be easy for you to clear up. Keep in mind that the questions were spread across several topics.
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Your’re not listening: I dialogue with deconverts almost daily lol
I welcome as many as you want me to interact with. I also meet with other religious factions almost daily.
I just spent two days talking with a witch so I think you’re good.
This is interesting now that you bring it up this way.
Let’s test this theory of yours:
Are you willing to talk to a convert? One who has gone from Atheism to Religion? I have a really good one.
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Talk? Dialogue over the internet, sure.
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I meet people in person. The witch was in person. Atheist are in person. The Jehovah witnesses again in person. Since you don’t know me you should spend less time judging me.
I don’t ask you who you interact with because I don’t care. You either know what you are talking about or you don’t. Who you know, your credentials, your job, your IQ, etc are utterly irrelevant to me.
Side Note: online individuals are equally as important (i don’t want to take away from those interactions)
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You stated — “You obviously influenced your wife to give up Church by the sound of it, and you have been judged by her folks.”
My response — Again jumping to conclusions. I told her I would go anytime she wanted. I didn’t even care what religion she was. She took in upon herself to read my content and she came to her own conclusion.
But sure people judge (no doubt) I must do it to because I’m flawed (I may add that to my prayers)
My point is that you do it a lot. At least with me. I’m saying because I find it interesting, I don’t think it’s good or bad, I just wonder why you feel your opinions are indemonstrable in respect to being wrong .
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I have an idea that I think will work and meets your requirements.
When I was in the Navy a plane crashed into my ship and almost killed all of us. There was a tense 3 hours of possible dying and people were crying in the hanger bay and preparing for the afterlife. Bodies were being brought in and lined up on the floor and I was there watching it all (including one man who was pouring out blood right in front of me)
This is a true event and a fact. This should meet your requirements for me.
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On my side or yours?
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Yours. Check settings.
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It already has “Allow link notifications from other blogs (pingbacks and trackbacks) on new articles ”
I will take a look later today to see if I can find what you are talking about.
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Sorry; YOU as a christian – you must believe in the christian god. No another answer can be the “right” answer – for you.
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You Stated — ” No another answer can be the “right” answer – for you.”
My Response — As an individual any answer I provide is in fact the answer right for me. People are allowed their opinions but in the end that’s all they are.
We do not live in a world where we all believe the same things regardless of our labels. Christianity, in fact, has hundreds of denominations with different beliefs.
I believe in the God that existed before Christians did. This, to me, is the same god that exists within Christianity. If anyone agrees with me or not is irrelevant since it is only my belief and it only applies to me and those who also believe it.
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BAM!!
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Again Nope. I was just pointing out another fallacy in your opinions since science is proving you wrong.
Our original argument is still there.
I get the feeling that you want me to simply agree with anything you say but that’s not how it works.
We can argue religion after we finish our argument about God. If you don’t like that then you can stop talking to me anytime you want.
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…until “new” science is created to denounced the old.
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I posted — ““Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” “Marcus Aurelius”
You stated — “However, he did not have the benefit of modern day forensics, archaeology, DNA and gene research etc etc.”
My response — And yet his words still ring true in a world that used forensics to put innocent people in jail, who years later were freed using the same evidence. O.o
Or the gene research that brought us the safe changes in or food chain made by Monsanto that later became nightmares to farmers and ecology. O.o
It would seem to me that Marcus Aurelius is surviving the test of time.
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You stated — “The gods included within its covers are man made.”
I see your claim, where is your proof that the God of the Bible is not real?
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I’m asking can you prove what you claimed?
You stated — “The gods included within its covers are man made.”
If you can’t provide proof it’s no big deal since no one else can either. I was just wondering if you had more than just an opinion.
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Proofs are generally reserved for mathematics.
Are you asking for evidence?
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I’ve read the Apocrypha and I don’t accept them as being Scripture. It’s an endless argument, with the only solution (it seems)being to trust God’s ability to preserve His Word regardless of what Catholic +++ detractors say. Westcott & Hort were not Heb/Gk scholars. It’s all part of the ‘Long War Against God’. IMHO
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WESCOTT & HORT …. were OCCULTIST!!!! http://bibleready.org/Westcott_and_Hort.html
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Wow, Wow, Wow, many different, confusion, rude, scholarly , biblical, not biblically , God honoring responses to your post. You are very courageous to write this and I applaud for it. It’s always interesting to me so see how many ways biblical truth can be twisted, like the new putting spins on what ever the new is.
I did not know books had been taken out,=
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Returning to the Father
https://energeticsynthesis.com/index.php/resource-tools/blog-timeline-shift/3529-returning-to-the-father
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Reblogged this on Wake Up To The Truth.
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💜 My Religious Relatives admit The Old Testament corrects The New Testament or is The Other Way Round I Wonder or Wander; also Roman Emperor Constantine Stripped The Bible to Protect Christians from Being Thrown to The Lions for Roman Civilian Entertainment in Auditoriums
…💛💚💙…
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