The first British slave ship to reach the Americas, referred to as “The Good Ship Jesus” was, in fact, named the “Jesus of Lubeck,” a 700-ton ship sailing between 1562 and 1567.
Britain’s very first slave trader, John Hawkins, profited so greatly from the slave trade, that he caught the Queen’s attention. She donated the Jesus of Lubeck and another ship called the Minion, as an investment into Hawkins’ enterprise.
Hawkins had a reputation for being a religious man who required his crew to “serve God daily” and to love one another.
Sir Francis Drake accompanied Hawkins on this voyage and subsequent others. Drake, was himself, devoutly religious. Services were held on board twice a day.
Hawkins captured 300-500 slaves, mostly by plundering Portuguese ships, but also through violence and subterfuge promising Africans free land and riches in the new world.
He returned home with a profit and ships laden with ivory, hides, and sugar. Hawkins’ lucrative business in profiting from human atrocities was abruptly ended in 1567 when his fleet was confronted by Spanish conquistadors in the Gulf of Mexico.
Hawkins suffered a heavy loss of 325 men. His casualties are dwarfed by the number of African lives lost within the five years of Hawkins’ fiendish operation and the lives destroyed through brutal oppression of surviving enslaved Africans and the many generations to follow.
Reality Decoded 
Thanks for sharing. No one should ever profit from the suffering of others.
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You stated – “It is an interesting concept profiting from others, don’t you think?”
My response – It seems less interesting and more standard. Corporations, religions, politicians, organizations, etc all seem to have a no holds assault on profit above all else. Even medicine which you would think was designed to help is now designed simply to increase profits. Imagine a world where people keep others sick so they can purchase more medication.
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You stated — “How many millions did Mother Theresa wheedle out of many high profile notables for her missions?”
I don’t know much about her, although I have heard Hitchens get worked up about her from time to time.
If you have any sites that get to the hard facts quick on her I would be interested.
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You stated — “religion is unique in several respects”
My response — My viewpoint is a bit different. For example, I have a number of people I communicate with that literally worship the constitution. They can justify almost any bad decision with the constitution being the basis for that reality. They are very similar to Mel in that they justified segregation using the constitution and now they justify gun violence using it.
If we look at North Korea we will not find a god being worshipped but rather living people. Everything they write on paper is divine.
We are not going to escape this situation we are in until we accept that the problem is a bit wider than just one thing like religion, politics, etc.
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Oh, I agree, there are multiple factors involved. Power, greed, etc.
But the removal of a major one like religion will go a long way to establishing a more equitable society.
And at least we will be one step toward not having idiots saying ”God Wills It!”
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Removing one will only lead to another. It won’t solve the problem and you won’t be any closer to a final solution.
You have to change the dynamic completely.
You have to have a world where harm is rejected rather than embraced.
Think about the condition of our food, the air, religion, politics, etc, it’s all becoming a system of destruction.
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Removing one will only lead to another. It won’t solve the problem and you won’t be any closer to a final solution.
As I noted, it won’t solve everything but it WILL remove one major problem.
Think about the condition of our food, the air, religion, politics, etc, it’s all becoming a system of destruction.
I don’t subscribe to such a fatalist point of view, and the evidence supports this,albeit one small step at a time.
Overall, religion is up there with some of the absolute worst of human practices.
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Let’s not be so dramatic, I’m not saying the food will end the world, I’m saying food is becoming more poisonous due to bad policy and a quest for more profit. It’s obvious.
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Re-read and still correct. You may benefit from an upgrade in understanding of the direction food is going in America:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216714/
Since we are sharing links I’m sure you wont mind looking at this one 😉 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216714/
Compared with many other developing nations, the United States continues to rank at or near the bottom in indicators of mortality and life expectancy.
It will be interesting to see if you argue like Mel or simply admit when you are wrong.
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What is there to admit?
Is life expectancy higher or lower?
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Silly lander why compare us to other countries now. The food must be great because we are living longer than the people in the Wild West. O.o
Who can argue such sound reasoning Mel O.o
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Well, yes.
Mass production and all this entails will have a negative effect at some point. So did mass industrialization.
Things change we move on. We grow.
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OMG
Did you just break out of your recorded message!!!
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Thanks, with the huge amount of data I am processing for my databases it’s helpful to have a few shortcuts.
I currently have about 20 items being researched so this will help.
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You stated – “I am forever amused by the likes of Mel, who will try to justify every thing on the basis of cultural context while dismissing someone such as Hawkins”
My response – It is an interesting dynamic that keeps repeating itself throughout every aspect human culture. People have almost zero granularity. They truly believe there is right and wrong and since they believe this they then think they are speaking from a position of truth. Once in that position they must constantly stick to certain talking points and literally ignore anything that doesn’t fit that paradigm.
I think Mel would find AI training interesting. With AI you tell the machine that killing is wrong and never to do it. To test the machine, you ask it to kill something. You watch as it goes off to kill and you stop it. You ask why were you going to kill and it responds, “You told me so”. The machine is loyal and obedient but the programmer wants the machine to learn critical thinking. If the machine doesn’t learn this it will destroy everything around it one day for any number of reasons.
Just a thought
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You stated – “Mel claims he derives his morality from his god.”
My response – What a person claims is irrelevant and where they claim they derive information from is irrelevant. All that matters is the truth in relation to the situation.
To you Mel is unique do to religion, to me he is typical due to the human condition.
If I magically removed religion from Mel today and let him lose in the world he would use the same line of reasoning in politics. Nothing would be solved and Mel would still be the same person walking around in the world creating the same divisions under a different title.
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I’ve talked to many people who have left the church and they still have terrible reasoning skills. Your opinion of enlightenment for making one change in life isn’t convincing.
You believe we have a single problem that must be solved, I don’t. I believe the problem is more widespread and much more complex.
We will have to agree to disagree.
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Maybe you would like to talk to Jim or John Zande?
here is Jim’s blog and his latest post is spot on,
https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2018/11/20/grasping-at-straws-a-lecture-on-faith/
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I’ll check it out.
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You stated – “At least we agree that being part of the is a demonstration of terrible reasoning skills.”
My response – No problem I was worried there for a moment you were going to see the common denominator and use those Critical Thinking skills. O.o
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I have a stain resistant shirt so no worries like that on my side. (see technology is a good thing, you should keep up with it more)
Don’t blame me for your lack of a convincing argument. You should have converted me days ago. I just need to see some convincing evidence.
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You stated – “I do not have an argument. You are the one who wants the world to bend at the knee when Jesus returns.”
My response – I don’t think Mel is going to agree with you. O.o O
Are you saying this because of my post titled, “The World Will Bend Or Else” or did you pull this from the one show pony handbook again. O.o
You stated – “Aren’t you a member of the Broken Sinners Club currently filled with the Holy Spirit and the Saving Grace who is ”commanded’ to spread the ”Word”?”
My response — I must be….. what word did I spread to you?
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You stated – “Ah .. how sweet. You actually think I have actually trawled your blog!
Oh, I’m sorry, did I misread/misunderstand or did you not tell me you had already confessed to being a sinner?”
My response – I just feel bad now, I was being sarcastic, I don’t have any post with that title.
You should have gotten that one. You’re doing it wrong, slow down on the responses.
Read — Process — Respond
This is why I said speaking from a script is a bad thing.
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Your show still needs an upgrade since personal comments still have no effect on me.
But you are welcome to continue trying as I know you will 😉
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Watched him many times.
You are missing my point. Your argument is not convincing and all you do is repeat the same argument.
Let’s agree to disagree until you have something more convincing.
I’m open to discussing it in the future.
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You stated — ” how ridiculous your faith is.”
When you tell someone that what they believe is ridiculous… that is a claim.
It is even nonsensical since you have no idea what I believe.
On top of all of this when I ask for you to prove it you just argue more about how you are not trying to claim anything.
It’s clear your goal is to argue without reason. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
Even when I say let’s agree to disagree you continue to rant the exact same message.
It wouldn’t be so bad if you weren’t just repeating yourself.
Let me try again. Let’s agree to disagree.
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For someone not trying to do something you are working really hard.
All of this is your opinion, what I would like to see is a convincing argument not repeated words.
Let’s agree to disagree and try again another day.
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You are making something easy very hard.
If you take time out of your day to tell me something like (Hey lander you are a child and your beliefs are ridiculous)
Since I don’t know you and you are suddenly popping up judging me then my first reaction is. Why is that?
Then when you provide a reason and I don’t see it to be convincing I tell you and then it should be over.
In this case it isn’t because you return to berate me “again” with the exact same message (Hey lander you are a child and your beliefs are ridiculous) .
Ok so you have an opinion but I don’t find it convincing. Since you have claims on me (not me on you) then find a better argument. Until then why are crushing on me so hard lol.
Let’s agree to disagree until there is something more constructive.
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I’m starting to believe that this is really going over your head. I thought you were being cheeky at first.
Do you think the following statement is making a claim?
” You have to come to accept reality in your own time, “
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You stated — “On what grounds do you disagree with it and what evidence do you have to demonstrate an alternative?”
My response — I haven’t made any claims, that’s the point you keep missing. (over and over)
You keep making back to back claims about me, about my beliefs but I haven’t claimed anything. You are leaping.
As for reality, “I don’t know”, no one knows which is the point. You seem to know some that my reality is false so I’m asking for your proof (it’s your claim).
How do you not know you do this?
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Round and round
Let me know when you want to have a real conversation.
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WOW. *whew* I just read this entire dialog. I should have popped popcorn.
Do you follow the Christian faith as Arkenaten stated?
You disappeared on us for a while…
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You asked — “Do you follow the Christian faith as Arkenaten stated?”
My Response — I did a post on this once so people would have a decent understanding of my position. I think you may find it interesting. https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/08/14/10-things-i-learned-when-i-became-a-christian-1-sin-is-relative/
You Stated — “You disappeared on us for a while…”
My Response — True! I just went through a whirlwind of life changes due to getting laid off. I now have a new job in a new state, sold my house and nearly all my belongings. I also have no debt now, more free time and money for entertainment. What a strange world!
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Ohhhhh K. Well, that was sinfully confusing. I was raised Christian (Baptist) but, never really got into it that much (except the youth groups with my teen friends…good way to meet boys). My maternal GM was Primitive Baptist and she had beliefs that, half the time, didn’t make any sense.
My last attempt at understanding some form of Christianity was in 2010-2011 when I was baptized Anglican. They offered no more truth than that of the Baptists but, the wine was good. By mid 2011, I was done with religion altogether.
I was surprised to read that you are Christian with your extensive view of the Universe and it’s oddities. They don’t seem compatible.
Sorry for the layoff. That seems to be happening everywhere. New job, new state, new belongings and no debt. Good for you! Glad everything is good. I was starting to wonder.
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You stated – “He also says an atheist should never be allowed to interpret Scripture? “
My response – Should anyone be allowed is the question.
https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/08/18/10-things-i-learned-when-i-became-a-christian-2-interpretation-allows-anything-to-mean-anything/
Interpretation is an interesting concept.
Guns were made to kill people, that written history.
Add interpretation:
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Introduce questions (the most feared thing on earth)
What about when guns go off with no one holding them? Do they kill people then?
Response:
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
Ask more questions:
What if guns are innocent and only bullets kill people?
Response:
Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
You don’t need religion to find this odd dynamic. It’s a human condition, you can find it in science as well.
https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/04/08/meet-sam-cohen-the-man-who-claimed-he-found-a-way-to-morally-kill-millions/
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This is where you are not understanding what you are up against. Religion has proven itself to be self replicating even in the absence of a core religion. It keeps coming back and people keep fighting it.
Talk about hubris, religion is undamaged. If anything you now have the Humanist movement which is doomed to become a religion at some point (history repeats itself).
Buddhism started of as a non-religious movement…. look at it now.
But let’s agree to disagree for the time since I still don’t have you onboard with Philosophy.
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I’m am not an individual that expects things to change at the click of one’s fingers.
While it is true that numbers of the religious are increasing, this is simply a natural process that every society goes through.
After years of suppression China’s Christian membership is increasing as fast as the queues outside MacDonald’s and Kentucky.
However, one only has to look at the more socially developed nations and see how they are ,in fact, moving away from organised religion and an ever-increasing lack of dependence on religion itself.
In this instance, the USA does not feature among socially developed, by. I am sure you probably agree on this point. 🙂
If we simply take a religion such as the one you adhere to. It has has over two thousand years to spread and corrupt whole countries and multiple generations.
That situation will not be easily flushed from society.
But in Days of Yore when the Church and its grubby minions could simply torture and burn alive dissenters it now has to bite its lip and hope and prey(sic) it can still spread its message through less overly vile means.
So what are a few hundred years more?
It is an inexorable march toward a more secular humanist world.
And if you will excuse the pun – Thank the god for that!
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Let’s start with something easy to get some clarity because maybe I am misunderstanding you.
My current belief about you is this:
You are a one show pony. You have no constructive arguments outside of religion and/or your opposition to it. Your world belief is simple, remove religion and the entire world will be a great place to live in, no more war, no more hate, and no more intolerance.
Science is something you know a little about but nothing in technology. You have no vision of technology changing the course of history for mankind and or making things like religion and politics obsolete.
You believe that 100% of all Christians are the same and fall under a three part scheme 1) early indoctrination 2) tragedy of some type 3) belief without any reason of any type that can even be remotely possible.
Your goal is to convince each one you encounter of how foolish every thought they have is on anything religious and how spot on your understanding is as to the nature of reality and reason.
If any of that is incorrect let me know so I can adjust my understanding of your perspective.
One Question:
How will you OR how can religion be removed completely from the world? Or if not then just removed from America.
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You stated “one only has to look at the more socially developed nations and see how they are ,in fact, moving away from organised religion and an ever-increasing lack of dependence on religion itself.”
My response – Whew! We will soon be free, thank God. Or is it science. My bad caps Science.
You stated — After years of suppression China’s Christian membership is increasing as fast as the queues outside MacDonald’s and Kentucky.
My response – Oh I see what you’re saying it doesn’t go away it just moves around.
You clever
Oh well back in we go.
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You stated — “particular brand of Christianity” , “exercised a high degree of critical thought” , “particular sect you are now a fervent member of”
My response — lol Let’s test this canned response to see if it’s part of the pony show or a real conversation?
What brand of Christianity did I say I was?
What critical thought did I say I applied to my religious choice?
What sect did I say I was in?
You stated — “how does this choice line up with all the others who also think they have exercised similar critical thinking skill”
My response – “Lander how does your choice differ from everyone else’s like mine differ from everyone else’s?”
Hmmm. You caught me I didn’t know when I picked a religion that other people had made the same choice. You just found the smoking gun, time to go viral and change the world over to your Unique perspective that no one else has O.o
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You stated “the particular sect you are now a fervent member of”
My question — “What sect did I say I was in?”
Your response — “You didn’t as far as I can recall.”
And there we have it “The Pony Show”
You stated — “it is obvious if you claim to be christian you must belong to one of them.”
My response — Hmmm it’s almost like you have the answer before you ask…. it’s like a script…. must be a pony show. If you use lower case in Christian does it mean I’m Catholic? That was some silliness from your earlier show.
You stated — “In my experience, questions about why a person deconverts, as a rule never elicit such asinine responses.” “Most deconverts are more than willing to engage in an open and frank manner. This, as we can see here with you, is in stark contrast to those who are indoctrinated into one faith-based worldview or another and seem forced to resort to banal kindergarten responses when their critical thinking skills are on the line.” “The cognitive dissonance must be quite distressing sometimes. Or do you simply fall to your knees and pray to Jesus for guidance?”
My response — Lets see what we have, “asinine responses” got it…. “banal kindergarten responses” got it…… “cognitive dissonance”… got it.
Hmm what is this missing? It has all the jabs at me (expected) and it’s entertaining (at least I think so) but it’s missing something….. Ahh yes, now I see it, content. I see no convincing evidence to convert me. I don’t think name calling is working. Do you have any other methods?
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You stated — “But just for the record —-what type of evidence would you demand?”
My response — Since you made the claim based on your mature understanding of me then only you would know what type of evidence. I myself have no idea but so far none has been provided.
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You stated — “(religion) humans will simply outgrow it” …. Silly lander
My response — But here we are 5000 years in and they haven’t O.o
You stated — “I’m not making this up as a ”One Show Pony”, the facts speak for themselves.”
My response — “I’m not a one show pony and I can prove it with the same argument”… The literal nature of a one show pony O.o
You stated — “So regardless, of all your squealing it is not going to make an iota of difference.”
My response — Thanks Mel for proving me wrong with evidence and sound reason. I’m so glad you didn’t make it about me again. O.o
They all think they are so different from each other…. How strange.
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You stated – “Actually, what is strange is you believe in narrative construct from within the pages pf a fallacious ”book”, …….”
My response – I thought when I purchased two tickets I was going to get another show but all I see is the same pony.
What gives?
Lander! I can prove you wrong with the same talking point that was ineffective the last time because it’s the same one everyone uses for everything. Why can’t you see that lander and just agree. O.o
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You stated – “Well if you do not have the critical thinking skills to answer the first basic question what is the point of moving onto more grown up/mature orientated questions?”
My response – I must admit calling me childlike does make me more responsive. O.o
You stated – “Maybe it is just a matter of asking you the same question differently and maybe
we’ll stumble across a flavour you like?”
My response – That sounds like a good plan. Let’s trick me into answering the question in a way that is more satisfying to you so that you feel better about being correct.
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You stated – “Start to behave in a more grown up manner and I am sure the responses will reflect your more mature attitude.’
My response – Yes ma’am
You stated — Furthermore, I don’t have to trick you to ”feel better about being correct.”
The external evidence specific to the religious aspects of our dialogue tells me I am.
My response – LOL Spoken like a true Narcissist
Just curious, if you are so right why is it so hard to get people to believe you?
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The Lollypop is a Go(o)d ship
Today was a bad day for the wife and I. Too much squabbling and anger between the two of us. –
I started to read these comments …but
Sometimes it’s best to agree to disagree …don’t you think?
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As imperfect humans we must agree to disagree
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Sad.
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