This is a story of men who said they loved God but served death. How many like them are speaking today?

The first British slave ship to reach the Americas, referred to as “The Good Ship Jesus” was, in fact, named the “Jesus of Lubeck,” a 700-ton ship sailing between 1562 and 1567.

Britain’s very first slave trader, John Hawkins, profited so greatly from the slave trade, that he caught the Queen’s attention. She donated the Jesus of Lubeck and another ship called the Minion, as an investment into Hawkins’ enterprise.

Hawkins had a reputation for being a religious man who required his crew to “serve God daily” and to love one another.

Sir Francis Drake accompanied Hawkins on this voyage and subsequent others. Drake, was himself, devoutly religious. Services were held on board twice a day.

Hawkins captured 300-500 slaves, mostly by plundering Portuguese ships, but also through violence and subterfuge promising Africans free land and riches in the new world.

He returned home with a profit and ships laden with ivory, hides, and sugar. Hawkins’ lucrative business in profiting from human atrocities was abruptly ended in 1567 when his fleet was confronted by Spanish conquistadors in the Gulf of Mexico.

Hawkins suffered a heavy loss of 325 men. His casualties are dwarfed by the number of African lives lost within the five years of Hawkins’ fiendish operation and the lives destroyed through brutal oppression of surviving enslaved Africans and the many generations to follow.

slaves and masters praying.jpg
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Join the conversation! 71 Comments

  1. Thanks for sharing. No one should ever profit from the suffering of others.

    Liked by 1 person

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  2. Your ongoing dialogue with Pastor Mel brought me here.
    Good post. Very interesting read.
    I learned something else this morning and for this I am grateful. Thanks.

    It is an interesting concept profiting from others, don’t you think?

    Some would argue that the entirety of religion is based on profiting from others – tithing, dropping a few ‘shekels’ in the collection plate, selling indulgences etc etc.all on the false assurance that they are building up a sort of spiritual trusseau for the next life!
    Snake oil sales tactics at their best.

    How many millions did Mother Theresa wheedle out of many high profile notables for her missions?
    And some of the money she was given came from some very dubious people, who in their turn , had profited from the misery of others.
    Certainly the Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest organisations on the planet and very likely the wealthiest independent land/property owner.
    There are any number of super rich Pastors, some with private jets!
    Yes, one can argue that many organisations operate in a similar fashion, but with religion, one god or another is usually claimed to be at the helm in some fashion.

    In fact one could argue that the primary basis of religion is to develop an entire race of slaves through subtle and often not so subtle indoctrination.

    I am forever amused by the likes of Mel, who will try to justify every thing on the basis of cultural context while dismissing someone such as Hawkins as the antithesis of following Jesus. And yet, he is adamant Abraham definitely heard the voice of Yahweh and what he was about to do to his kid was perfectly acceptable – in context.
    Notwithstanding that, these days the Pentateuch is generally considered as little more than Jewish foundation myth – a work of geopolitical fiction.

    And he believes Hawkins suffered from cognitive dissonance!
    My goodness’. Oh, how I laughed.

    He also says an atheist should never be allowed to interpret Scripture? Why not? Wasn’t Ywhh clear enough? Did those who were originally inspired to write the texts get it wrong?
    Oh, say it isn’t so!
    Or does he think atheists are ignorant like the dumb schmucks the disciples are portrayed as in gMark?

    Your dialogue with him was interesting. I enjoyed the read and will continue to read your interaction should you decide to venture over there again.

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    • You stated – “It is an interesting concept profiting from others, don’t you think?”

      My response – It seems less interesting and more standard. Corporations, religions, politicians, organizations, etc all seem to have a no holds assault on profit above all else. Even medicine which you would think was designed to help is now designed simply to increase profits. Imagine a world where people keep others sick so they can purchase more medication.

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    • You stated — “How many millions did Mother Theresa wheedle out of many high profile notables for her missions?”

      I don’t know much about her, although I have heard Hitchens get worked up about her from time to time.

      If you have any sites that get to the hard facts quick on her I would be interested.

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      • Rather than let me lead you up the Garden Path I’m pretty sure Google will provide you with ample evidence.

        Whatever you turn up, it is hard to deny that with all the millions at her disposal, the conditions she ministered (sic) under were appalling.

        Re: the profiting from others comment.
        I did mention that religion is unique in several respects.
        I will add it is the only (that I am aware of) system that backs its largely erroneous and fallacious claims using similar erroneous and fallacious texts and completely unverifiable divine powers (gods).
        And of course, failure to adhere to the Christian deity will result in eternal damnation is a demesne that said deity created!

        Liked by 1 person

      • You stated — “religion is unique in several respects”

        My response — My viewpoint is a bit different. For example, I have a number of people I communicate with that literally worship the constitution. They can justify almost any bad decision with the constitution being the basis for that reality. They are very similar to Mel in that they justified segregation using the constitution and now they justify gun violence using it.

        If we look at North Korea we will not find a god being worshipped but rather living people. Everything they write on paper is divine.

        We are not going to escape this situation we are in until we accept that the problem is a bit wider than just one thing like religion, politics, etc.

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      • Oh, I agree, there are multiple factors involved. Power, greed, etc.
        But the removal of a major one like religion will go a long way to establishing a more equitable society.
        And at least we will be one step toward not having idiots saying ”God Wills It!”

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      • Removing one will only lead to another. It won’t solve the problem and you won’t be any closer to a final solution.

        You have to change the dynamic completely.
        You have to have a world where harm is rejected rather than embraced.

        Think about the condition of our food, the air, religion, politics, etc, it’s all becoming a system of destruction.

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      • Removing one will only lead to another. It won’t solve the problem and you won’t be any closer to a final solution.
        As I noted, it won’t solve everything but it WILL remove one major problem.

        Think about the condition of our food, the air, religion, politics, etc, it’s all becoming a system of destruction.

        I don’t subscribe to such a fatalist point of view, and the evidence supports this,albeit one small step at a time.

        Overall, religion is up there with some of the absolute worst of human practices.

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      • Let’s not be so dramatic, I’m not saying the food will end the world, I’m saying food is becoming more poisonous due to bad policy and a quest for more profit. It’s obvious.

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      • You are the one who is being dramatic.
        Re-read your comment!

        I’m saying food is becoming more poisonous due to bad policy and a quest for more profit. It’s obvious.
        That is an opinion I do not share and the overall health of humanity and the ever increasing life expectancy would suggest you are being somewhat of a doomsdayist.

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      • Re-read and still correct. You may benefit from an upgrade in understanding of the direction food is going in America:

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216714/

        Since we are sharing links I’m sure you wont mind looking at this one 😉 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK216714/

        Compared with many other developing nations, the United States continues to rank at or near the bottom in indicators of mortality and life expectancy.

        It will be interesting to see if you argue like Mel or simply admit when you are wrong.

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      • What is there to admit?
        Is life expectancy higher or lower?

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      • Silly lander why compare us to other countries now. The food must be great because we are living longer than the people in the Wild West. O.o

        Who can argue such sound reasoning Mel O.o

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      • Well, yes.
        Mass production and all this entails will have a negative effect at some point. So did mass industrialization.
        Things change we move on. We grow.

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      • OMG

        Did you just break out of your recorded message!!!

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      • Okay, I’ll oblige your request with this one.
        You will regard it as an opinion piece, I am sure, fair enough, but there are several other articles listed at the foot of the post that cover various aspects of her ministry, including first hand accounts.

        The major reason for bringing this up was not to single out this example, as the entire history of religion and Christianity in particular is riddled with corruption from almost the get go.

        View story at Medium.com

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks, with the huge amount of data I am processing for my databases it’s helpful to have a few shortcuts.

        I currently have about 20 items being researched so this will help.

        Liked by 1 person

    • You stated – “I am forever amused by the likes of Mel, who will try to justify every thing on the basis of cultural context while dismissing someone such as Hawkins”

      My response – It is an interesting dynamic that keeps repeating itself throughout every aspect human culture. People have almost zero granularity. They truly believe there is right and wrong and since they believe this they then think they are speaking from a position of truth. Once in that position they must constantly stick to certain talking points and literally ignore anything that doesn’t fit that paradigm.

      I think Mel would find AI training interesting. With AI you tell the machine that killing is wrong and never to do it. To test the machine, you ask it to kill something. You watch as it goes off to kill and you stop it. You ask why were you going to kill and it responds, “You told me so”. The machine is loyal and obedient but the programmer wants the machine to learn critical thinking. If the machine doesn’t learn this it will destroy everything around it one day for any number of reasons.

      Just a thought

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      • Mel is not an AI.
        Mel claims he derives his morality from his god.
        However , as you demonstrated with the Hawkins post which he criticized, he is unable to see a similar moral/ethical standard within himself,albeit under vastly different circumstances.
        Sadly, he is simply following his own programming – religious indoctrination – and as soon as he is confronted with something like this then cognitive dissonance kicks in, which he pointed out Hawkins had.
        Come on, be honest, you have to love the delicious irony.

        There is what appears to be a blind refusal to consider he is wrong, even though will likely tell you he questions all the time!
        Wash, rinse repeat …

        The easiest way to get a been -there-done -that line on this is to discuss the subject with a deconvert.
        Almost to the individual, they will tell you he is delusional and some will tell you he is lying. And I guess they should know!

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      • You stated – “Mel claims he derives his morality from his god.”

        My response – What a person claims is irrelevant and where they claim they derive information from is irrelevant. All that matters is the truth in relation to the situation.

        To you Mel is unique do to religion, to me he is typical due to the human condition.

        If I magically removed religion from Mel today and let him lose in the world he would use the same line of reasoning in politics. Nothing would be solved and Mel would still be the same person walking around in the world creating the same divisions under a different title.

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      • What a person claims is irrelevant and where they claim they derive information from is irrelevant. All that matters is the truth in relation to the situation.

        There is no truth to be found in a system where such truth is claimed to be derived from an unverified and unverifiable source, and in this case a deity.
        This is especially true when the religious texts can be shown to fallacious – such as the bible and the Qu’ran.

        If I magically removed religion from Mel today and let him lose in the world he would use the same line of reasoning in politics.

        Maybe Mel would. However, based on the testimonies of quite a number of deconverts I have read, and with who I chat to regularly, would suggest their entire outlook changes almost immediately after walking away from the crap of religious indoctrination;
        having realised they had been lied to for so long , most seem to strive to avoid a position where they perpetuate such a habit in their ”new life”.

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      • I’ve talked to many people who have left the church and they still have terrible reasoning skills. Your opinion of enlightenment for making one change in life isn’t convincing.

        You believe we have a single problem that must be solved, I don’t. I believe the problem is more widespread and much more complex.

        We will have to agree to disagree.

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      • I’ve talked to many people who have left the church and they still have terrible reasoning skills.

        At least we agree that being part of the church ( and one can extrapolate and include all forms of religious belief/faith) is a demonstration of terrible reasoning skills.

        That they may have problems in many other areas is a given, but at least they have managed to elevate their skills enough to recognise just how nonsensical religion and religious belief truly is.
        That is something to offer kudos for surely?

        You believe we have a single problem that must be solved,

        Not at all, and I at no point have I even alluded to such a condition.
        I am saying there are many issue, but the demise of religion will eliminate one of them.
        I suspect your involvement in/with the Christian faith is making it difficult for you to recognise this?

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      • You stated – “At least we agree that being part of the is a demonstration of terrible reasoning skills.”

        My response – No problem I was worried there for a moment you were going to see the common denominator and use those Critical Thinking skills. O.o

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      • Amazing: You are still convinced that being a Christian is a demonstration of rational thought and critical thinking skills.
        Excuse me while I wipe the coffee I just spilled of my shirt!

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      • I have a stain resistant shirt so no worries like that on my side. (see technology is a good thing, you should keep up with it more)

        Don’t blame me for your lack of a convincing argument. You should have converted me days ago. I just need to see some convincing evidence.

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      • I do not have an argument. You are the one who wants the world to bend at the knee when Jesus returns.
        Aren’t you a member of the Broken Sinners Club currently filled with the Holy Spirit and the Saving Grace who is ”commanded’ to spread the ”Word”?

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      • You stated – “I do not have an argument. You are the one who wants the world to bend at the knee when Jesus returns.”

        My response – I don’t think Mel is going to agree with you. O.o O

        Are you saying this because of my post titled, “The World Will Bend Or Else” or did you pull this from the one show pony handbook again. O.o

        You stated – “Aren’t you a member of the Broken Sinners Club currently filled with the Holy Spirit and the Saving Grace who is ”commanded’ to spread the ”Word”?”

        My response — I must be….. what word did I spread to you?

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      • Ah .. how sweet. You actually think I have actually trawled your blog!

        Oh, I’m sorry, did I misread/misunderstand or did you not tell me you had already confessed to being a sinner?

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      • You stated – “Ah .. how sweet. You actually think I have actually trawled your blog!
        Oh, I’m sorry, did I misread/misunderstand or did you not tell me you had already confessed to being a sinner?”

        My response – I just feel bad now, I was being sarcastic, I don’t have any post with that title.

        You should have gotten that one. You’re doing it wrong, slow down on the responses.

        Read — Process — Respond

        This is why I said speaking from a script is a bad thing.

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      • See previous comment re: asinine replies.
        You could almost be a slightly less erudite Wally clone. Have you two been cribbing notes?

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      • Your show still needs an upgrade since personal comments still have no effect on me.

        But you are welcome to continue trying as I know you will 😉

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      • Of course they don’t. This is what religious indoctrination does.
        Watch something featuring William Lane Craig.
        He is the expert. You could learn a thing or two.

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      • Watched him many times.

        You are missing my point. Your argument is not convincing and all you do is repeat the same argument.

        Let’s agree to disagree until you have something more convincing.

        I’m open to discussing it in the future.

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      • Again, I am not missing ANY point at all.
        I never had any intention of trying to convert you or convince you of the reality of how ridiculous your faith is.
        The evidence does that without any help from me, I can assure you.
        I thought I had made this point perfectly clear?
        That is something you must come to terms with in your own time and in your own way.
        Again. Read some of the deconversion testimonies of members of the Clergy Project – if you are up to reading a bit of hard truth, of course.
        All you and I are doing is engaging in dialogue in blogsville.

        It is for others reading along to make up their own minds.
        Much in the same way the responses you received from Mel and Wally exposed the glaring holes in their faith.

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      • You stated — ” how ridiculous your faith is.”

        When you tell someone that what they believe is ridiculous… that is a claim.

        It is even nonsensical since you have no idea what I believe.

        On top of all of this when I ask for you to prove it you just argue more about how you are not trying to claim anything.

        It’s clear your goal is to argue without reason. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

        Even when I say let’s agree to disagree you continue to rant the exact same message.

        It wouldn’t be so bad if you weren’t just repeating yourself.

        Let me try again. Let’s agree to disagree.

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      • Yes it is a claim… and for good reason. Evidence.
        It is even nonsensical since you have no idea what I believe.
        You have stated you are a Christian. You have stated you have confessed your sin/s
        So, yes, to a degree I do know what you believe.

        Even when I say let’s agree to disagree you continue to rant the exact same message.
        Even when I clarify your errors you continue to try to justify your worldview.

        Let me try again. Let’s agree to disagree.

        Let me try again. I am not trying to deconvert you or convince you how ridiculous your faith is, that is a reality you must reach for yourself.
        If you want further clarification read some of the testimonies of former professionals on the Clergy Project.

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      • For someone not trying to do something you are working really hard.

        All of this is your opinion, what I would like to see is a convincing argument not repeated words.

        Let’s agree to disagree and try again another day.

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      • Seriously, what convincing argument are you expecting?

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      • You are making something easy very hard.

        If you take time out of your day to tell me something like (Hey lander you are a child and your beliefs are ridiculous)

        Since I don’t know you and you are suddenly popping up judging me then my first reaction is. Why is that?

        Then when you provide a reason and I don’t see it to be convincing I tell you and then it should be over.

        In this case it isn’t because you return to berate me “again” with the exact same message (Hey lander you are a child and your beliefs are ridiculous) .

        Ok so you have an opinion but I don’t find it convincing. Since you have claims on me (not me on you) then find a better argument. Until then why are crushing on me so hard lol.

        Let’s agree to disagree until there is something more constructive.

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      • That we would disagree about your faith based belief was a given right from the get go. I thought I made this abundantly clear when you asked why nobody was convinced by my argument.
        As you pointed out to Wally. You write in an open forum. And you quoted Timothy, which made me smile as it is considered by certain modern scholars as fraudulent. But then, you were ”talking” to Wally who believes the bible is innerent and dinosaurs and humans coexisted, so it was perfect for him.

        I reiterate. You have to come to accept reality in your own time, but if you want more in depth first hand examples then read the deconversion testimonies at the Clergy Project.

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      • I’m starting to believe that this is really going over your head. I thought you were being cheeky at first.

        Do you think the following statement is making a claim?

        ” You have to come to accept reality in your own time, “

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      • Ah .. I see. You believe making a statement about reality is a claim?
        This presupposes there are realities other than this one.
        Fair enough.
        Then, yes, one could say that my statement regarding reality is a claim.

        On what grounds do you disagree with it and what evidence do you have to demonstrate an alternative?

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      • You stated — “On what grounds do you disagree with it and what evidence do you have to demonstrate an alternative?”

        My response — I haven’t made any claims, that’s the point you keep missing. (over and over)

        You keep making back to back claims about me, about my beliefs but I haven’t claimed anything. You are leaping.

        As for reality, “I don’t know”, no one knows which is the point. You seem to know some that my reality is false so I’m asking for your proof (it’s your claim).

        How do you not know you do this?

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      • You keep making back to back claims about me, about my beliefs but I haven’t claimed anything/em>

        You are a Christian. You made a confession that you were a sinner.
        Those are claims and they identify your beliefs.

        As for reality,
        Your reality is the same as everyone else’s, so yes we do know that much.
        However, you believe that it is more than this and make claims regarding grace, forgiveness, sin, an afterlife that encompasses heaven and hell etc etc. These are part parcel of being a Christian and aside from the fact that they – as is everything about Christianity – simply man made doctrine, you would have no way of verifying such claims in any case.

        Insisting otherwise, is generally considered a mental health issue. Treatable, but a mental health issue nonetheless.

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      • Round and round

        Let me know when you want to have a real conversation.

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      • And nas soon as a nerve is exposed the Theological Two step begins ….
        Let me know when you are prepared to be honest, then we might well have a real conversation.

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      • Maybe you would like to talk to Jim or John Zande?
        here is Jim’s blog and his latest post is spot on,
        https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2018/11/20/grasping-at-straws-a-lecture-on-faith/

        Liked by 1 person

      • I’ll check it out.

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    • You stated – “He also says an atheist should never be allowed to interpret Scripture? “

      My response – Should anyone be allowed is the question.

      https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/08/18/10-things-i-learned-when-i-became-a-christian-2-interpretation-allows-anything-to-mean-anything/

      Interpretation is an interesting concept.

      Guns were made to kill people, that written history.

      Add interpretation:
      Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

      Introduce questions (the most feared thing on earth)
      What about when guns go off with no one holding them? Do they kill people then?

      Response:
      Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

      Ask more questions:
      What if guns are innocent and only bullets kill people?

      Response:
      Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

      You don’t need religion to find this odd dynamic. It’s a human condition, you can find it in science as well.

      https://realitydecoded.blog/2018/04/08/meet-sam-cohen-the-man-who-claimed-he-found-a-way-to-morally-kill-millions/

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      • The tenets of religion are based wholly on fallacious and erroneous presupposition.
        Science is not.

        Religion has not produced anything that can genuinely be considered beneficial to humanity, and in the main has brought little but misery and false hope.

        Its eventual demise will be like a breath of fresh , especially the demise of the two major Abrahamic faiths.

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      • This is where you are not understanding what you are up against. Religion has proven itself to be self replicating even in the absence of a core religion. It keeps coming back and people keep fighting it.

        Talk about hubris, religion is undamaged. If anything you now have the Humanist movement which is doomed to become a religion at some point (history repeats itself).

        Buddhism started of as a non-religious movement…. look at it now.

        But let’s agree to disagree for the time since I still don’t have you onboard with Philosophy.

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      • I’m am not an individual that expects things to change at the click of one’s fingers.

        While it is true that numbers of the religious are increasing, this is simply a natural process that every society goes through.
        After years of suppression China’s Christian membership is increasing as fast as the queues outside MacDonald’s and Kentucky.
        However, one only has to look at the more socially developed nations and see how they are ,in fact, moving away from organised religion and an ever-increasing lack of dependence on religion itself.
        In this instance, the USA does not feature among socially developed, by. I am sure you probably agree on this point. 🙂

        If we simply take a religion such as the one you adhere to. It has has over two thousand years to spread and corrupt whole countries and multiple generations.
        That situation will not be easily flushed from society.
        But in Days of Yore when the Church and its grubby minions could simply torture and burn alive dissenters it now has to bite its lip and hope and prey(sic) it can still spread its message through less overly vile means.

        So what are a few hundred years more?
        It is an inexorable march toward a more secular humanist world.
        And if you will excuse the pun – Thank the god for that!

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      • Let’s start with something easy to get some clarity because maybe I am misunderstanding you.

        My current belief about you is this:
        You are a one show pony. You have no constructive arguments outside of religion and/or your opposition to it. Your world belief is simple, remove religion and the entire world will be a great place to live in, no more war, no more hate, and no more intolerance.

        Science is something you know a little about but nothing in technology. You have no vision of technology changing the course of history for mankind and or making things like religion and politics obsolete.

        You believe that 100% of all Christians are the same and fall under a three part scheme 1) early indoctrination 2) tragedy of some type 3) belief without any reason of any type that can even be remotely possible.

        Your goal is to convince each one you encounter of how foolish every thought they have is on anything religious and how spot on your understanding is as to the nature of reality and reason.

        If any of that is incorrect let me know so I can adjust my understanding of your perspective.

        One Question:

        How will you OR how can religion be removed completely from the world? Or if not then just removed from America.

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      • You stated “one only has to look at the more socially developed nations and see how they are ,in fact, moving away from organised religion and an ever-increasing lack of dependence on religion itself.”

        My response – Whew! We will soon be free, thank God. Or is it science. My bad caps Science.

        You stated — After years of suppression China’s Christian membership is increasing as fast as the queues outside MacDonald’s and Kentucky.

        My response – Oh I see what you’re saying it doesn’t go away it just moves around.

        You clever

        Oh well back in we go.

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      • Seems that your blinkered approach is due to your ever more desperate need to cling to the bosom of Jesus of Nazareth.
        Hmmm ….

        As you must truly believe that your particular brand of Christianity is the right one – as you have obviously exercised a high degree of critical thought in your choice of religion, AND the particular sect you are now a fervent member of,
        how does this choice line up with all the others who also think they have exercised similar critical thinking skill in their choice?

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      • You stated — “particular brand of Christianity” , “exercised a high degree of critical thought” , “particular sect you are now a fervent member of”

        My response — lol Let’s test this canned response to see if it’s part of the pony show or a real conversation?

        What brand of Christianity did I say I was?

        What critical thought did I say I applied to my religious choice?

        What sect did I say I was in?

        You stated — “how does this choice line up with all the others who also think they have exercised similar critical thinking skill”

        My response – “Lander how does your choice differ from everyone else’s like mine differ from everyone else’s?”

        Hmmm. You caught me I didn’t know when I picked a religion that other people had made the same choice. You just found the smoking gun, time to go viral and change the world over to your Unique perspective that no one else has O.o

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      • What sect did I say I was in?
        You didn’t as far as I can recall. However, unless you have established a new one ( and why not , they spring up like weeds.) it is obvious if you claim to be christian you must belong to one of them.

        Hmmm. You caught me …
        Yes it does seem like this.
        In my experience, questions about why a person deconverts, as a rule never elicit such asinine responses.
        Most deconverts are more than willing to engage in an open and frank manner. This, as we can see here with you, is in stark contrast to those who are indoctrinated into one faith-based worldview or another and seem forced to resort to banal kindergarten responses when their critical thinking skills are on the line.
        The cognitive dissonance must be quite distressing sometimes. Or do you simply fall to your knees and pray to Jesus for guidance?

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      • You stated “the particular sect you are now a fervent member of”

        My question — “What sect did I say I was in?”

        Your response — “You didn’t as far as I can recall.”

        And there we have it “The Pony Show”

        You stated — “it is obvious if you claim to be christian you must belong to one of them.”

        My response — Hmmm it’s almost like you have the answer before you ask…. it’s like a script…. must be a pony show. If you use lower case in Christian does it mean I’m Catholic? That was some silliness from your earlier show.

        You stated — “In my experience, questions about why a person deconverts, as a rule never elicit such asinine responses.” “Most deconverts are more than willing to engage in an open and frank manner. This, as we can see here with you, is in stark contrast to those who are indoctrinated into one faith-based worldview or another and seem forced to resort to banal kindergarten responses when their critical thinking skills are on the line.” “The cognitive dissonance must be quite distressing sometimes. Or do you simply fall to your knees and pray to Jesus for guidance?”

        My response — Lets see what we have, “asinine responses” got it…. “banal kindergarten responses” got it…… “cognitive dissonance”… got it.

        Hmm what is this missing? It has all the jabs at me (expected) and it’s entertaining (at least I think so) but it’s missing something….. Ahh yes, now I see it, content. I see no convincing evidence to convert me. I don’t think name calling is working. Do you have any other methods?

        Like

      • And there we have … exactly the type of response I mentioned in the comment.

        But just for the record —-what type of evidence would you demand?

        Like

      • You stated — “But just for the record —-what type of evidence would you demand?”

        My response — Since you made the claim based on your mature understanding of me then only you would know what type of evidence. I myself have no idea but so far none has been provided.

        Like

  3. Re: Your question.

    It is not a matter of how will it be removed ( as if we are talking about a surgical procedure -that is simply ludicrous, of course ); humans will simply outgrow it.

    This is what we are seeing in the more socially developed countries.
    I’m not making this up as a ”One Show Pony”, the facts speak for themselves.

    So regardless, of all your squealing it is not going to make an iota of difference.- unless of course you can come up with evidence to back your faith-based claims?
    And that would be worth buying a ticket for!

    Like

    Reply
    • You stated — “(religion) humans will simply outgrow it” …. Silly lander

      My response — But here we are 5000 years in and they haven’t O.o

      You stated — “I’m not making this up as a ”One Show Pony”, the facts speak for themselves.”

      My response — “I’m not a one show pony and I can prove it with the same argument”… The literal nature of a one show pony O.o

      You stated — “So regardless, of all your squealing it is not going to make an iota of difference.”

      My response — Thanks Mel for proving me wrong with evidence and sound reason. I’m so glad you didn’t make it about me again. O.o

      They all think they are so different from each other…. How strange.

      Like

      Reply
      • Actually, what is strange is you believe in narrative construct from within the pages pf a fallacious ”book”, are part of a religion that is effectively a cult of human sacrifice and here you are defending it!
        I repeat. The evidence tells us that the more socially developed a country becomes then the less dependent they are on religion.
        And once can reduce this to the individual as well if you like.

        Like

      • You stated – “Actually, what is strange is you believe in narrative construct from within the pages pf a fallacious ”book”, …….”

        My response – I thought when I purchased two tickets I was going to get another show but all I see is the same pony.

        What gives?

        Lander! I can prove you wrong with the same talking point that was ineffective the last time because it’s the same one everyone uses for everything. Why can’t you see that lander and just agree. O.o

        Like

      • Well if you do not have the critical thinking skills to answer the first basic question what is the point of moving onto more grown up/mature orientated questions?

        Maybe it is just a matter of asking you the same question differently and maybe
        we’ll stumble across a flavour you like?

        Like

      • You stated – “Well if you do not have the critical thinking skills to answer the first basic question what is the point of moving onto more grown up/mature orientated questions?”

        My response – I must admit calling me childlike does make me more responsive. O.o

        You stated – “Maybe it is just a matter of asking you the same question differently and maybe
        we’ll stumble across a flavour you like?”

        My response – That sounds like a good plan. Let’s trick me into answering the question in a way that is more satisfying to you so that you feel better about being correct.

        Like

      • My response – I must admit calling me childlike does make me more responsive. O.o

        I call it as I see it.
        Start to behave in a more grown up manner and I am sure the responses will reflect your more mature attitude.

        No trick. Merely trying to establish a reading comprehension level that will encourage you to provide more straightforward answers.
        Furthermore, I don’t have to trick you to ”feel better about being correct.”

        The external evidence specific to the religious aspects of our dialogue tells me I am.

        Like

      • You stated – “Start to behave in a more grown up manner and I am sure the responses will reflect your more mature attitude.’

        My response – Yes ma’am

        You stated — Furthermore, I don’t have to trick you to ”feel better about being correct.”
        The external evidence specific to the religious aspects of our dialogue tells me I am.

        My response – LOL Spoken like a true Narcissist

        Just curious, if you are so right why is it so hard to get people to believe you?

        Like

      • Well, feel free to present evidence in that case and I will apologize unreservedly. On that you have my word.

        Just curious, if you are so right why is it so hard to get people to believe you?

        As I have stated on numerous occasions, ( not here but elsewhere) the average non-believer has pretty much zero chance of someone such as you accepting what I or any other non-believer imparts in an environment such as this.
        The Double Down effect normally kicks in. and a smattering of the Dunning-Kruger effect for good measure. Just like you in fact!
        Most believers deconvert because of nagging questions that will not resolve.
        Miracles often feature and also the question of evil.
        They then go on to investigating such things themselves and usually when the cognitive dissonance gets too much many suddenly realise they no longer believe.
        Deconversion often follows, and it can be swift or a slow painful process, involving hiding the fact from ones family, friends and even one’s church.
        Eventually, many will admit they simply could not maintain the lie any longer.
        If you want a more detailed answer I strongly suggest you read the deconversion testimonies of some of those who belong to the clergy project.
        These people have in depth knowledge of the bible and are thus able to offer much more effective rebuttals to apologetic clap trap – as they themselves were trained in apologetics!
        Just type the phrase Clergy Project in Google.
        Or simply ask Jim or Ben or any deconvert that reads my blog.

        For me, such interaction has several facets. Your post on Hawkins was an eye opener, as I enjoy quite a number of aspects of history.
        This helps me build up a broader knowledge base of Christianity.
        I am always interested in new arguments and new evidence but after some considerable time blogging and reading I have not heard a new argument for quite some time, and have never read or heard of any evidence to support any of the claims of Christianity.

        And as I offer to every christian I dialogue with: Feel free to present the evidence you have to support your claims.
        I once had a Christian minister named Christopher tell me there was evidence of the Exodus as they had found chariot wheels at the bottom the Red Sea!
        Ah, yes. Good old Ron Wyatt!

        Most arguments are like this or similar and nothing I have read has ever been vaguely convincing.

        Like

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Money VS People, Religion Gone Wild

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